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Ðàçãîâîðû îá Àìåðèêå www.gerasimov.org
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Àðòåì Ìîäåðàòîð
: 10.03.2003 : 8295 : Russia, Ufa
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: , 20, 2009 1:05pm : |
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Ìåíÿ íå ïîêèäàåò îùóùåíèå, ÷òî â àìåðèêàíñêîé ìåäèöèíå êòî-òî æèâåò íà î÷åíü íåòðóäîâûå äîõîäû. Íó íå ìîæåò, ñêàæåì, àíåñòåçèÿ ñòîèòü $1000. ×òî òàì òàêîãî íà òûñÿ÷ó? Äàæå åñëè ïðèêèíóòü, ÷òî ó àíåñòåçèîëîãîâ çàðïëàòû $150000 â ãîä.
Ìíå êàæåòñÿ èëè òàê è åñòü, ÷òî â àìåðèêàíñêîé ìåäèöèíå ïðè åå ñóãóáî ïëàòíîì óñòðîéñòâå îòñóñòâóåò ïðÿìàÿ êîíêóðåíöèÿ? |
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Andrew Ãëàâíûé òðåïà÷
: 01.03.2003 : 10421 : Èðêóòñê, RU -> Los Angeles, US
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: , 20, 2009 3:54pm : |
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Àðòåì (): |
Ìíå êàæåòñÿ èëè òàê è åñòü, ÷òî â àìåðèêàíñêîé ìåäèöèíå ïðè åå ñóãóáî ïëàòíîì óñòðîéñòâå îòñóñòâóåò ïðÿìàÿ êîíêóðåíöèÿ? |
ß â ýòîì íå áîëüøîé çíàòîê, íî ïîïðîáóþ âíåñòè ñâîè 5 êîïååê. Íàñêîëüêî çíàþ, åñòü òàêèå ñòðàõîâêè, ãäå òû ìîæåøü ñàì âûáèðàòü áîëüíèöû è âðà÷åé, à åñòü òàêèå, ãäå òû ìîæåøü ëå÷èòüñÿ òîëüêî â ñåòè áîëüíèö äàííîé êîìïàíèè (Êàê "Kaiser", íàïðèìåð).  ïåðâîì ñëó÷àå, ïîëó÷àåòñÿ, êîíêóðåíöèÿ åñòü. Âî âòîðîì - íåò.
Âîîáùå, ðåêîìåíäóþ ïîñìîòðåòü ôèëüì "John Q" - êîíå÷íî, ìíîãîå â íåì - ãîëëèâóäñêàÿ ñêàçêà. Íî, êàê ãîâîðèòñÿ, ñêàçêà ëîæü, äà â íåé íàìåê. Ðàññêàçûâàåòñÿ èñòîðèÿ î òîì, êàê ó îäíîé îáû÷íîé àìåðèêàíñêîé ñåìüè ñèëüíî çàáîëåë ñûí è ïîòðåáîâàëàñü ñðî÷íàÿ îïåðàöèÿ íà ñåðäöå. Áîëüíèöà îòêàçàëàñü åå äåëàòü, òàê êàê ó ñåìüè ïðîñòî íå áûëî äåíåã, à ñòðàõîâêà òàêóþ îïåðàöèþ íå ïîêðûâàëà. Òîãäà ãëàâà ñåìåéñòâà ðåøèë çàõâàòèòü áîëüíèöó ñ çàëîæíèêàìè è ðåøèòü âîïðîñ òàêèì îáðàçîì. Íåïëîõîé ôèëüì. _________________ Àíäðåé Ãåðàñèìîâ |
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Àðòåì Ìîäåðàòîð
: 10.03.2003 : 8295 : Russia, Ufa
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: , 20, 2009 7:48pm : |
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Ñïàñèáî çà ðåêîìåíäàöèþ ôèëüìà.
Ïî ïîâîäó åñòü êîíêóðåíöèÿ èëè íåò, ÿ èìåë â âèäó, ÷òî êîãäà åñòü ðåàëüíî ðàáîòàþùàÿ êîíêóðåíöèÿ, íå ìîæåò áûòü çàâûøåííûõ öåí. À öåíû êàæóòñÿ ñèëüíî çàâûøåííûìè. $1000 çà àíåñòåçèþ... áëèí... ÷èñòîé íàðêîòîé îíè íàêà÷èâàþò ÷òî ëè... è òî äåøåâëå áû âûøëî.
È "ñëèâêè" ïîëó÷àþò íå ðÿäîâûå ñîòðóäíèêè, à "ñåðûå êàðäèíàëû", êîòîðûå âëàäåþò ÷åì-òî. È ÷òî-òî òàì åñòü òèïà ñãîâîðà, ìîíîïîëèè èëè âîîáùå îäèí åäèíñòâåííûé ÷åë, êîòîðûé âñ¸ äåðæèò.
Ëèáî èìåþò ìåñòî çàïóòàííûå ñõåìû, ïðè êîòîðûõ ëþäåé âûíóæäàþò ïîêóïàòü ñòðàõîâêè, à ðåàëüíî çà ëå÷åíèå ïëàòÿòñÿ ñîâñåì íå òå äåíüãè, êîòîðûå óêàçûâàþòñÿ â ïðàéñàõ. |
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Slava ÍËÎ
: 10.03.2003 : 4182 : at this moment Stamford CT
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: , 21, 2009 3:31am : |
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Àðòåì...
Âñå î÷åíü ïðîñòî. Íàçûâàåòñÿ ñåÿ ôèøêà malpractice insurance. Ýòî ñòðàõîâêà íà òîò ñëó÷àåòñÿ åñëè áóäåò äîïóùåíà êàêàÿ-òî îøèáêà â ëå÷åíèè áîëüøîãî. Ñèþ ñòðàõîâêó äîëæíû èìåòü - äîêòîð, ãîñïèòàëü â êîòîðîì äîêòîð ðàáîòàåò, êîìïàíèÿ ÷òî âûïóñêàåòñÿ òàáëåòêè, êîìïàíèÿ ÷òî âûïóñêàåò îáîðóäîâàíèå è ò.ä. êòî õîòü êàêèì ëèáî ìåñòîì êàñàëñÿ áîëüíîãî?
×èòàë íà ñòîëüêî òóò îòñóæèâàþò çà îøèáêè â îòíîøåíèè ïàöèåíòîâ? Âîò. Îòòóäà è çàîáëà÷íûå öåíû íà ñòðàõîâêè. Êðàåì óõà ñëûøàë ÷òî â íàøèõ ìåñòàõ ãîäîâàÿ ñòðàõîâêà òàêîãî òèïà äëÿ ãèíåêîëîãà 200,000 çåëåíûõ. Êàê îíî?
À ÷òîáû ñòàòü äîêòîðîì, ïîìèìî ãäå-òî ëåò 7 ó÷åáû, åùå íàäî ëåò 5 (êàæåòñÿ) ðàáîòàòü ÷óòü-ëè íå çà ãðîøè òèïà íàáèðàÿñü îïûòà. Êñòàòè, êðåäèòû íà îáó÷åíèå íà äîêòîðà ñàìûå êîñìè÷åñêèå. Ïðîùå äîì êàæåòñÿ êóïèòü ÷åì òå êðåäèòû íà îáó÷åíèå âûïëàòèòü.
È óæå òîëüêî ïîñëå ýòîãî ìîæíî äîáàâëÿòü íåèìîâåðíóþ çàðïëàòó äîõòóðà
À èñ÷î åñòü òàêèå èíòåðåñíûå ñëó÷àè êàê òî åñëè ÷åðåç 10 ëåò óçíàþò ÷òî îêàçûâàåò àñïèðèí âûçûâàë ðàê, òî áóäóò ñóäèòü âñåõ êòî èìåë îòíîåøåíèå ê àñïèðèíó.
Òàê áûëî ëåò 10 (à ìîæåò è áîëüøå íàçàä). Ãäå-òî â ñåðåäèíå 60-70 ñ÷èòàëîñü ÷òî íîâîðîæäåííûì (âðîäå íåäîíîøåííûì) äåòÿì íàäî äàâàòü êèñëîðîäíûå ìàñêè. Íó òèïà ÷òîáû íå óìåðèë. À ÷åðåç 10 ëåò óçíàëè ÷òî äåòè îò ýòîãî ñëåïëè. Õîòÿ è îñòàâàëèñü æèâû. Ñóäèëè ìíîãî è âñåõ êòî äàâàë ýòè êèñëîðîäíûå ìàñêè. Ñïðàøèâàåòñÿ, íàõåðà âàùå òîãäà êîãî-ëèáî ëå÷èòü? À âäðóã ÷åðåç 20 ëåò ñêàæóò ÷òî ñåãîäíÿøíèå ìåòîäû êàëå÷àò ëþäåé õîòÿ è äàþò èì ïðàâî æèòü?
À åñëè ïîäóìàåøü ÷òî ëó÷øå òîãäà íèêîãî íå ëå÷èòü è òîãäà ïðîáëåì íå áóäåò? Àõà, òîãäà òåáÿ áóäóò ñóäèòü çà áåçäåéñòâèå
Ïðè òàêèõ âõîäÿøèõ óñëîâèÿõ ðàáîòû ÿ áû òîæå ñíèìàë ìíîãî äåíåõ çà ñâîè óñëóãè _________________ Good judgment comes from expirience.
Expirience comes from bad judgment |
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Àðòåì Ìîäåðàòîð
: 10.03.2003 : 8295 : Russia, Ufa
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: , 21, 2009 4:24am : |
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 îáùåì, êîðî÷å ãîâîðÿ, ñèñòåìà çäðàâîîõðàíåíèÿ äóðàöêàÿ è óñòðîåíà îòâðàòèòåëüíî. Îòñþäà è âûñîêèå öåíû. |
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violetta Æèòåëü ôîðóìà
: 05.05.2007 : 181 : Israel
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: , 22, 2009 7:00pm : |
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 îáùåì, êîðî÷å ãîâîðÿ, ñèñòåìà çäðàâîîõðàíåíèÿ äóðàöêàÿ è óñòðîåíà îòâðàòèòåëüíî. |
Îíà íå òîëüêî îòâðàòèòåëüíàÿ, îíà åù¸ è î÷åíü æåñòîêàÿ. Åñòü äåíüãè - ïîëó÷èøü care, à íåò - íà íåò è ñóäà íåò .È ÷òî æå? ×åëîâåêó ïîäûõàòü ÷òî ëè?  ýòîì îòíîøåíèè â Èçðàèëå ãóìàííàÿ ñèñòåìà, ïðåäîñòàâëÿþùàÿ êàæäîìó ãðàæäàíèíó ñòðàíû ìåä. îáñëóæèâàíèå è îêàçàíèå ìåä. ïîìîùè. ß æèâó íà ãðàíèöå ñ òåððèòîðèÿìè (ðÿäîì ñ Äæåíèíîì), êàêèì-òî îáðàçîì îòòóäà ïåðåáèðàþòñÿ íà èçðàèëüñêóþ òåððèòîðèþ, ãäå èõ ïîãðàíè÷íûé ïàòðóëü è íàõîäèò, è äîñòàâëÿåò â áîëüíèöó, â êîòîðîé ÿ ðàáîòàþ. À â Èçðàèëå çàêîí - êàæäûé ïàëåñòèíåö, íàõîäÿùèéñÿ íà èçðàèëüñêîé òåððèòîðèè, äîëæåí ïîëó÷èòü íåîáõîäèìóþ ìåä.ïîìîùü, ñ ãîñïèòàëèçàöèåé â áîëüíèöå èëè áåç. Èíîãäà òàêèå áîëüíûå ëåæàò â áîëüíèöå íåñêîëüêî äíåé, à äåíü ãîñïèòàëèçàöèè äëÿ èçðàèëüòÿí (îïëà÷èâàåòñÿ áîëüíè÷íûìè êàññàìè, íå èç êàðìàíà áîëüíîãî) ñòîèò îêîëî 480-500 äîëëàðîâ. Êòî îïëà÷èâàåò ëþäÿì ñ òåððèòîðèé äíè èõ ãîñïèòàëèçàöèè è îêàçàíèå íåîáõîäèìîé ìåä.ïîìîùè? Íàëîãîïëàòåëüùèêè, òî áèøü, ìû - ïðîñòûå ëþäè. Îêàçàëè áû èì ïîìîùü, åñëè áû èçðàèëüñêàÿ ñèñòåìà áûëà òàêîé æå êàê àìåðèêàíñêàÿ? _________________ Per aspera ad astra |
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Àðòåì Ìîäåðàòîð
: 10.03.2003 : 8295 : Russia, Ufa
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: , 22, 2009 7:51pm : |
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violetta (): |
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 îáùåì, êîðî÷å ãîâîðÿ, ñèñòåìà çäðàâîîõðàíåíèÿ äóðàöêàÿ è óñòðîåíà îòâðàòèòåëüíî. |
Îíà íå òîëüêî îòâðàòèòåëüíàÿ, îíà åù¸ è î÷åíü æåñòîêàÿ. Åñòü äåíüãè - ïîëó÷èøü care, à íåò - íà íåò è ñóäà íåò .È ÷òî æå? ×åëîâåêó ïîäûõàòü ÷òî ëè?  ýòîì îòíîøåíèè â Èçðàèëå ãóìàííàÿ ñèñòåìà, ïðåäîñòàâëÿþùàÿ êàæäîìó ãðàæäàíèíó ñòðàíû ìåä. îáñëóæèâàíèå è îêàçàíèå ìåä. ïîìîùè. ß æèâó íà ãðàíèöå ñ òåððèòîðèÿìè (ðÿäîì ñ Äæåíèíîì), êàêèì-òî îáðàçîì îòòóäà ïåðåáèðàþòñÿ íà èçðàèëüñêóþ òåððèòîðèþ, ãäå èõ ïîãðàíè÷íûé ïàòðóëü è íàõîäèò, è äîñòàâëÿåò â áîëüíèöó, â êîòîðîé ÿ ðàáîòàþ. À â Èçðàèëå çàêîí - êàæäûé ïàëåñòèíåö, íàõîäÿùèéñÿ íà èçðàèëüñêîé òåððèòîðèè, äîëæåí ïîëó÷èòü íåîáõîäèìóþ ìåä.ïîìîùü, ñ ãîñïèòàëèçàöèåé â áîëüíèöå èëè áåç. Èíîãäà òàêèå áîëüíûå ëåæàò â áîëüíèöå íåñêîëüêî äíåé, à äåíü ãîñïèòàëèçàöèè äëÿ èçðàèëüòÿí (îïëà÷èâàåòñÿ áîëüíè÷íûìè êàññàìè, íå èç êàðìàíà áîëüíîãî) ñòîèò îêîëî 480-500 äîëëàðîâ. Êòî îïëà÷èâàåò ëþäÿì ñ òåððèòîðèé äíè èõ ãîñïèòàëèçàöèè è îêàçàíèå íåîáõîäèìîé ìåä.ïîìîùè? Íàëîãîïëàòåëüùèêè, òî áèøü, ìû - ïðîñòûå ëþäè.
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Ñ îäíîé ñòîðîíû, ýòî êîíå÷íî îáèäíî, ÷òî ïðèõîäèòñÿ ïëàòèòü çà êàêèõ-òî ëåâûõ ëþäåé. Íî ñ äðóãîé ñòîðîíû ýòî èäåò íà ïîëüçó îáùåñòâó è â êîíå÷íîì èòîãå íàëîãîïëàòåëüùèêàì. Ïðèÿòíåå æå è áåçîïàñíåå æèòü â ãóìàííîé ñòðàíå, ãäå ìåäèöèíà äîëæíà ïîìî÷ü âñåì íóæäàþùèìñÿ.
Åñëè áû áîëüíûå ëþäè ïðîäîëæàëè âàëÿòüñÿ â ïîäâîðîòíÿõ (à åùå íåèçâåñòíî - ÷åì îíè áîëåþò!), òî ýòî æ õóæå äëÿ îñòàëüíûõ äîáðîïîðÿäî÷íûõ ãðàæäàí.
Ãëàâíîå, ÷òîáû îïðåäåëåííàÿ ÷åðòà (ñîöèàëüíîé ïîìîùè) íå ïåðåñåêàëàñü, êîãäà ïðîùå ñòàíîâèòñÿ âåñòè ïðàçäíûé îáðàç æèçíè, íåæåëè ðàáîòàòü.
violetta (): |
Îêàçàëè áû èì ïîìîùü, åñëè áû èçðàèëüñêàÿ ñèñòåìà áûëà òàêîé æå êàê àìåðèêàíñêàÿ? |
Íó â ÑØÀ, âðîäå áû, òîæå ýêñòðåííóþ ïîìîùü îêàçûâàþò âñåì. Òîëüêî îíè ïîñëå ýòîãî ñ÷åò âûñòàâëÿþò ñ î÷åíü êðóãëîé ñóììîé. Õîòÿ ÿ áû ïðåäïî÷åë çàäîëæàòü $100000, è áûòü ñïàñåííûì, ÷åì ñäîõíóòü. |
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violetta Æèòåëü ôîðóìà
: 05.05.2007 : 181 : Israel
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: , 24, 2009 8:43pm : |
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Íó â ÑØÀ, âðîäå áû, òîæå ýêñòðåííóþ ïîìîùü îêàçûâàþò âñåì. Òîëüêî îíè ïîñëå ýòîãî ñ÷åò âûñòàâëÿþò ñ î÷åíü êðóãëîé ñóììîé. Õîòÿ ÿ áû ïðåäïî÷åë çàäîëæàòü $100000, è áûòü ñïàñåííûì, ÷åì ñäîõíóòü. |
Íåñîìíåííî!
Ó íàñ òîæå ñ òîãî ñâåòà âûòàñêèâàþò, ïîòîì áîëüíè÷íàÿ êàññà îïëà÷èâàåò ñ÷¸ò çà ïðåáûâàíèå â áîëüíèöå. Áîëüíîìó ñ÷¸ò íèêòî íå ïðåäúÿâëÿåò. _________________ Per aspera ad astra |
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Slava ÍËÎ
: 10.03.2003 : 4182 : at this moment Stamford CT
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: , 24, 2009 11:43pm : |
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violetta (): |
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Íó â ÑØÀ, âðîäå áû, òîæå ýêñòðåííóþ ïîìîùü îêàçûâàþò âñåì. Òîëüêî îíè ïîñëå ýòîãî ñ÷åò âûñòàâëÿþò ñ î÷åíü êðóãëîé ñóììîé. Õîòÿ ÿ áû ïðåäïî÷åë çàäîëæàòü $100000, è áûòü ñïàñåííûì, ÷åì ñäîõíóòü. |
Íåñîìíåííî!
Ó íàñ òîæå ñ òîãî ñâåòà âûòàñêèâàþò, ïîòîì áîëüíè÷íàÿ êàññà îïëà÷èâàåò ñ÷¸ò çà ïðåáûâàíèå â áîëüíèöå. Áîëüíîìó ñ÷¸ò íèêòî íå ïðåäúÿâëÿåò. |
 îáùåì-òî ó íàñ â êîíöå êîíöîâ òîæå, êîãäà ÷åëîâåê íå ìîæåò îïëàòèòü ýòîò ñàìûé ñ÷åò. Êîíå÷íûé ðåçóëüòàò ïðèìåðíî òîò æå ñàìûé, ïðîñòî íåìíîãî äîëüøå ê íåìó èäòè. _________________ Good judgment comes from expirience.
Expirience comes from bad judgment |
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Andrew Ãëàâíûé òðåïà÷
: 01.03.2003 : 10421 : Èðêóòñê, RU -> Los Angeles, US
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: , 29, 2009 10:26pm : |
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Êîëëåãà ïðèñëàë:
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A wealthy hospital benefactor was visiting the local hospital, when during
Her tour of floors; she passed a room where a male patient was masturbating.
"Oh my GOD!" said the lady. "That's disgraceful; why is he doing that?"
The doctor leading the tour explained, "I am sorry, but this man has a very
Serious condition where the testicles rapidly fill with semen.
If he doesn't do that five times a day, they'll explode and he will die
Within minutes."
"Oh, that's terrible," said the lady.
In the very next room, they could see that a female nurse was performing
Oral sex on a different male patient.
"Oh my GOD!" exclaimed the lady, "How can that be justified?"
The doctor replied, "Same illness, better health care plan."
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_________________ Àíäðåé Ãåðàñèìîâ |
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MaxiM Áóäóùèé àìåðèêàíåö
: 03.06.2003 : 3546 : Moscow
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: , 30, 2009 4:09am : |
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Andrew (): |
Êîëëåãà ïðèñëàë:
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A wealthy hospital benefactor was visiting the local hospital, when during
Her tour of floors; she passed a room where a male patient was masturbating.
"Oh my GOD!" said the lady. "That's disgraceful; why is he doing that?"
The doctor leading the tour explained, "I am sorry, but this man has a very
Serious condition where the testicles rapidly fill with semen.
If he doesn't do that five times a day, they'll explode and he will die
Within minutes."
"Oh, that's terrible," said the lady.
In the very next room, they could see that a female nurse was performing
Oral sex on a different male patient.
"Oh my GOD!" exclaimed the lady, "How can that be justified?"
The doctor replied, "Same illness, better health care plan."
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